tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post4157041340166432962..comments2023-09-02T11:38:09.518-04:00Comments on The Lamb on the Altar: John MacArthur on Infant BaptismChuck Wiesehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09008527429925493264noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-32519795219499484672018-04-15T22:37:01.907-04:002018-04-15T22:37:01.907-04:00I have frequently told people that baptism is some...I have frequently told people that baptism is something done TO us (which is obvious) so it cannot be a work (ordinance). Your article is the first occasion where I have seen someone else make this argument. This article is excellent and I learned much from it. I'd put Colossians 2:11-12 actually INTO the article. It is a really important point, and completely refutes MacArthur. My friend (Lutheran) thought highly of him, but I had no opinion until I saw what he said about baptism. He's a false teacher. What he believes about baptism will most certainly color the rest of his teaching. PatAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-29806234526885204892018-02-12T12:25:35.574-05:002018-02-12T12:25:35.574-05:00The participles are agent clauses: this is "h...The participles are agent clauses: this is "how" one "makes disciples," by baptizing and teaching . . . barteltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07379345746722663280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-57948632967230042462014-08-09T11:57:18.322-04:002014-08-09T11:57:18.322-04:00Yes.
And when you read the text, it is, "…ba...Yes.<br /><br />And when you read the text, it is, "…baptizing and teaching them…"<br /><br />Since God is doing the Baptizing, He doesn't need to wait for us to "teach" them, BEFORE He acts.<br /><br />We actually have a REAL God, ya know.<br /><br />One dependent upon us, before He acts.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13251554325064300307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-41166644672645032942013-12-15T07:03:21.523-05:002013-12-15T07:03:21.523-05:00sorenroe:
Could you explain why you think that th...sorenroe:<br /><br />Could you explain why you think that the use of the masculine pronoun means that the action of baptizing must by done after the discipling? Baptizing is a present participle which often indicates an action that is taking place at the same time as the main verb. The use of a masculine pronoun would not indicate anything about the timing of the action. I think the masculine pronoun is used to indicate that the people within the nations are to be baptized. So they are told to disciple the nations by baptizing the people within those nations, teaching them...Chuck Wiesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09008527429925493264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-2397648330317167002013-12-14T13:21:01.241-05:002013-12-14T13:21:01.241-05:00Exiting to read! But I have a question concerning ...Exiting to read! But I have a question concerning matt 28: How can Lutherans understand Jesus to say that it is the nations that are to be baptised and teached when the word nation is in neuter and them in masculine? Wouldn't that sugest that we are to baptise and teach those who are already discipled?soerenoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08249121564062886982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-45033745800481760972013-12-14T13:20:24.886-05:002013-12-14T13:20:24.886-05:00Exiting to read! But I have a question concerning ...Exiting to read! But I have a question concerning matt 28: How can Lutherans understand Jesus to say that it is the nations that are to be baptised and teached when the word nation is in neuter and them in masculine? Wouldn't that sugest that we are to baptise and teach those who are already discipled?Sørennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-87252104926915655032013-06-19T11:47:40.747-04:002013-06-19T11:47:40.747-04:00Baptism isn't about the water...only.
It is G...Baptism isn't about the water...only.<br /><br />It is God's word of promise, attached to the water. That is why the amount of water is not important.<br /><br />__<br /><br />MacArthur is a legalist pure and simple. I have heard so many of his "sermons" on the radio that bring the hearer nowhere but back into him/herself for any assurance (which WON'T be found there).<br /><br />This is what inevitably happens when you do NOT have a real presence of Christ in Baptism or the Lord's Supper.<br /><br />No thanks. <br /><br />I'll stick with the external Word.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13251554325064300307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-79617506799836243952013-06-18T22:07:25.856-04:002013-06-18T22:07:25.856-04:00I cleaned it up a bit. I'm not sure if I caugh...I cleaned it up a bit. I'm not sure if I caught everything, but it's a little better now.Chuck Wiesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09008527429925493264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-65048310231765030602013-06-18T20:36:09.647-04:002013-06-18T20:36:09.647-04:00Excellent rebuttal, Chuck! I would like to refer ...Excellent rebuttal, Chuck! I would like to refer people on my Lutheran blog to this post.<br /><br />First though, would it be possible for you to go back through the article and clean up a few distracting typos. These occur mostly in the middle of the article. In one place you repeat two sentences back to back.<br /><br />Keep preaching the true Gospel! I too pray that Baptists and evangelicals will finally see the truth.<br /><br />Gary<br />Luther, Baptists, and EvangelicalsGaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-15811814636541044352012-12-02T23:22:15.279-05:002012-12-02T23:22:15.279-05:00Anonymous,
Salvation has past, present, and futur...Anonymous,<br /><br />Salvation has past, present, and future aspects. If someone asks me when I got saved I tell them on April, 3 33AD. In John 3, Jesus says people are born from above by being of water and Spirit which is what happens at baptism. Adults need this as well. We know from the end of Mark that baptism is salvific but it is only unbelief that condemns. Jesus never says baptism is a symbol or our work just as he never says that the Lord's Supper is a symbol or our work. He says they are for the forgiveness of sins. God doesn't promise to work salvation through the reading of Scripture (He certainly can if He wants to but He doesn't promise to). Instead He promises to work through the preached Word, through the Word in baptism, and through the Word in the Lord's Supper. We shouldn't doubt His promise but accept His Word. A person may have faith worked in them by the Holy Spirit promised to baptism but there is no indication from the Scriptures that it doesn't really matter if he gets baptized after that, in fact quite the opposite. If I tell my wife I love her once that doesn't mean that I shouldn't tell her again or that I can't tell her in different ways and it would be silly for my wife to refuse any of these other ways on the grounds that I already told her I love her once. Salvation is not something that just happens at some point in time when someone "makes a decision" for Jesus. Jesus promises regeneration and the forgiveness of sins in baptism and promises to give us His body and blood and forgiveness of sins in the Lord's Supper.<br /><br />In Acts 2:38, Peter literally says to be baptized into the forgiveness of sins. The Greek does not say "because of." A.T. Robertson tries to make it mean "because of" but you read him carefully even knows that's not what the Greek says. He basically starts out by saying that it can't mean what he sound like it means. He's approaching the text with his own presuppositions derived from his own tradition rather than simply trusting what Scripture says.<br /><br />In Matthew 28 the command is to disciple and how disciples are made according to the passage in the participles that follow are by baptizing and teaching them. So yes, regardless of age you should baptize and teach them. You shouldn't send out the kids during the preaching of the Gospel. Jesus did not turn the infants away but said that the kingdom of heaven belongs to them. Adults must become like little children simply trusting the Word of their Father to enter the kingdom of heaven. Chuck Wiesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09008527429925493264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-25796819189172868242012-12-02T19:14:46.656-05:002012-12-02T19:14:46.656-05:00But the problem regarding Baptism still remains. T...But the problem regarding Baptism still remains. The Lutheran theology teaches that the regeneration of the believer is done through Baptism. However, Jesus declared people as saved (thus also regenerated) at the moment of showing faith. So, when is the person born again - at the moment of receiving God's gift of faith, or later on at Baptism (excluding infant baptism)? What do you say? I believe at the reception of faith. If my understanding is correct, Baptism is stripped of it's function of playing a part in one's salvation.<br /><br />You mentioned that in Baptism your sins are forgiven. First if all - Jesus proclaimed people as saved and therefore forgiven before they were baptised. Secondly, the only verse that could be lead to your interpretation (Acts 2:38) says "for the forgiveness...". The word "for" can also mean "because of".<br /><br />And regarding Mat.28:19-20 - Jesus said we had to make disciples by baptising AND teaching them. The Greek word for "disciple" mean "learner". So putting the whole emphasis on the Baptism here seems unfair un unlogical. <br /><br />And regarding the Lord's Supper - if the Word is the main part, why can't I get the whole blessing just by reading the Scriptures? Jesus said in John 17:17 that the Word sanctifies, so the Word is the power. Why then is the bread and the cup necessary for any of this? So both remain as symbols of the work of the Word - by giving us faith (Rom.10:17) and sanctifying us. That's all we ever need. The rest is just for obedience, confession (Mat.10:32) and edification by acting as a reminder of Christ's work for us and His Second Coming. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-62692547800476714222012-12-02T16:09:50.585-05:002012-12-02T16:09:50.585-05:00Anonymous,
God works faith through His Word. God ...Anonymous,<br /><br />God works faith through His Word. God works through the Word in baptism, through the Word in the preaching of the Gospel, and through the Word in the Lord's Supper. People can have faith worked in them before baptism through the preaching of the Word. <br /><br />The Acts 8:37 passage that you quoted is based on a very poorly attested textual variant. But nevertheless, it provides a narrative about what happened not a command. Jesus said to disciple the nations by baptizing them. He did not say to baptize people after they become disciples. The Ethiopian was also a eunuch but that doesn't mean we have to all become eunuchs prior to baptism.<br /><br />God feeds us in the Lord's Supper. It's not a work that we do but something we receive. Jesus says it is for the forgiveness of sins. You're assuming that it is a work that we perform. God works through human vessels to bring it to us but it is God's work not ours just as God works through human vessels to bring us the preaching of the Gospel.Chuck Wiesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09008527429925493264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-23595739592120359032012-12-02T12:06:38.036-05:002012-12-02T12:06:38.036-05:00I am almost 10 years in a Lutheran congregation, b...I am almost 10 years in a Lutheran congregation, but only within the last 3 years studied the doctrines of Scripture in a way to understand them for myself (since our church doesn't emphasizes that). <br />My problem with the Sacraments is that Baptism is taught to be the moment of receiving faith, however Scripture clearly says and illustrates it with several examples how people receive faith and are even declared saved without Baptism. In Acts 8:37 Philip says to the Ethiopian that he can be baptised "If you believe with all your heart". <br />Secondly - the Lord's Supper is taught to be the way of keeping your salvation, which also in my view is unbiblical. To keep yourself saved by a work is Law. <br />What would you answer?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-26496842873331600042012-10-08T23:00:58.113-04:002012-10-08T23:00:58.113-04:00Some more thoughts on the confusion over the sacra...Some more thoughts on the confusion over the sacraments:<br /><br />http://www.pastormattrichard.com/2011/10/re-thinking-ones-position-on-sacraments.htmlPastor Matthttp://www.pastormattrichard.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-35320418361915394622011-11-29T10:19:52.016-05:002011-11-29T10:19:52.016-05:00No, I don't record myself.No, I don't record myself.Chuck Wiesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09008527429925493264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-67311206844323954962011-11-28T21:49:30.846-05:002011-11-28T21:49:30.846-05:00Is there audio or video version of thist?Is there audio or video version of thist?truthbetoldradiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11322252026214252000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-75465751109013051522011-11-13T19:51:24.265-05:002011-11-13T19:51:24.265-05:00Fr. John Whiteford:
Thank you for the information....Fr. John Whiteford:<br />Thank you for the information.Chuck Wiesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09008527429925493264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4836035001444911450.post-11350446683659299352011-11-13T07:11:18.567-05:002011-11-13T07:11:18.567-05:00With regard to John MacArthur's argument that ...With regard to John MacArthur's argument that baptism means to immerse, and so therefore infant baptism is impossible, in the Orthodox Church we baptize infants by triple immersion. The only time we do not immerse is when you have a child that is sickly or in danger of death, and then we baptize by effusion.Fr. John Whitefordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03455863282054302939noreply@blogger.com